Compatibility Report

RTX 2080 - Same.

Same here, RX 6600XT

System Information

• GPU: AMD Radeon 7900XTX
• Driver/LLVM version: Mesa 23.0-git/15.0.7
• Kernel version: 6.3-rc5
• Link to full system information report as gist
• Proton version: 1674511970 hotfix-23012023

steam-1680880.log

Symptoms

At the launch game pop's error "D3D12Core.dll(DirectX AgilitySDK) didn't be installed on your Windows. Please update Windows.".

I found a way on reddit how to make it work, just launch steam with: -steamdeck

I found a way on reddit how to make it work, just launch steam with: -steamdeck

The game launched, but the graphics look like they are from 2013 even in 4K (soapy textures, angular models). Is this related to this key or is it like that in itself?

steam-1680880-steamdeck.log

Looks about the same for me too.

GPU: NVIDIA RTX 3080ti mobile

Launch option: SteamDeck=1 %command%

That works too, but I can't get it above 30FPS. Vsync off and FPS limit set to 120FPS just does nothing here for me on NVIDIA.

I have the same issue as detailed above. SteamDeck=1 %command% does allow it to launch, but changing the graphics settings to anything from the default "low" causes the game to crash.

Launch option: SteamDeck=1 %command%

That works too, but I can't get it above 30FPS. Vsync off and FPS limit set to 120FPS just does nothing here for me on NVIDIA.

It's probably related to the workaround. It seems like the game has some special code paths for the steamdeck, and that may be handicapping things.

It seems with SteamDeck=1 it is not using D3D12Core.dll at all so probably can't use higher settings because of it.
When I moved this dll to be used by proton (it's in game folder) games starts without SteamDeck=1 but is stuck on loading.

Really hope Valve bans workarounds like this, what happens when Proton can support D3D12 for this game properly and its never able to use it cause of their check. Even if it only applies to the Deck that still means its unable to use it without you knowing to add steamdeck=0 (not even sure if that works on the deck.) This is a bad behavior imo.

Same here, Radeon RX 590 Series.

Update: It's Working Fine Now. -> No need "SteamDeck=1". | Nvidia RTX 2080

My standard launch command for every game (Nvidia) ->

PROTON_HIDE_NVIDIA_GPU=0 PROTON_ENABLE_NVAPI=1 gamemoderun %command%

I can confirm it starts now without any parameters, but textures and models still seems to load in low quality and FPS still low. Settings seems to only change fog and water.

Update: It's Working Fine Now. -> No need "SteamDeck=1". | Nvidia RTX 2080

My standard launch command for every game (Nvidia) ->

PROTON_HIDE_NVIDIA_GPU=0 PROTON_ENABLE_NVAPI=1 gamemoderun %command%

That’s cause valve updated proton to auto apply the steam deck command to forespoken. Wonder if SteamDeck=0 works as a command.

Update: It's Working Fine Now. -> No need "SteamDeck=1". | Nvidia RTX 2080
My standard launch command for every game (Nvidia) ->
PROTON_HIDE_NVIDIA_GPU=0 PROTON_ENABLE_NVAPI=1 gamemoderun %command%

That’s cause valve updated proton to auto apply the steam deck command to forespoken. Wonder if SteamDeck=0 works as a command.

Just checked. SteamDeck=0 brings back D3D12Core.dll error

I hope this doesn't become a trend. If the game works on Steam Deck it should work on Linux, and if it works on Linux it should work on Steam Deck. (with the exception being when the Steam Deck's hardware specifications aren't enough to run the game at acceptable performance, but even then, the game should still launch)

While arguably "playable" now, this "Steam Deck code path" is clearly not ideal. The game suffers from framerate issues on all platforms, it seems, but I don't think I've run into anybody on Linux able to consistently hit above mid-20s fps, even without hitting full CPU or GPU usage, while I know Windows users who are faring far better. Along with that, the busted LOD models everywhere are visually atrocious, inconsistent, and are clearly incorrect.

Loading times are also an isssue, but I'm willing to chock that down due to lack of DirectStorage (which my system wouldn't support on Windows anyways)

The vkd3d-proton ticket: https://github.com/HansKristian-Work/vkd3d-proton/issues/1390

Here's a stub DLL patch for Wine that returns the lowest SDK version.
0001-d3d12core-Add-stub-DLL.txt

While arguably "playable" now, this "Steam Deck code path" is clearly not ideal. The game suffers from framerate issues on all platforms, it seems, but I don't think I've run into anybody on Linux able to consistently hit above mid-20s fps, even without hitting full CPU or GPU usage, while I know Windows users who are faring far better. Along with that, the busted LOD models everywhere are visually atrocious, inconsistent, and are clearly incorrect.

Loading times are also an isssue, but I'm willing to chock that down due to lack of DirectStorage (which my system wouldn't support on Windows anyways)

it seems like that someone atleast got the demo running relatively well for the GPU used (as far as i can see) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZV7zBON8EY

it seems like that someone atleast got the demo running relatively well for the GPU used (as far as i can see) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZV7zBON8EY

I'm not sure how they're doing that, but according to their Reddit Post, that's out-of-the-box with Proton-GE. I've been trying to download the demo to see if there's a difference between that and the main game, but for whatever reason, Steam isn't letting me install it right now.

RTX 3080 with latest Nvidia Driver. Trying to play the Demo and that same message came up at launch

I copied the D3D12Core.dll from Forspoken D3D12 Folder within the Forspoken Game Folder to My Windows C:\Windows\System32 folder and the Game lanched perfectly without any Launch Parameters needed

I copied the D3D12Core.dll to My Windows C:\Windows\System32 folder and the Game lanched perfectly without any Launch Parameters needed

Trying this, I got different results depending on the version of Proton used:

Experimental [standard/bleeding-edge]: ntdll.dll error. Game appears to be working, but the dialog obscures the screen, game does not respond to input, and closing/confirming the dialog force-closes the game.

Proton Next: extremely long loading time followed by game locking up.

And then Denuvo locked me out of the game for 24 hours while I was trying to test other/get more information to post :D

d3d12core.zip
Here's my Wine compiled d3d12core.dll. Please let me know if it fixes the issue.

system32 SHA512 checksum
cbc071a3bbe8f9c28fbd1e38309ff103b736d080b1abcd7492c74ef8af7234481ca5509889ad0b03950c0861f11b94f53dd66688161cbb2604cf9f5ba6b2ceb0

syswow64 SHA512 checksum
99978d17ffa6726715f2a9718ffd05a8e9a41e1590ca46b7f47bac68fa762673707b67069ca48753a92d79319c6b7d25bee862cbcb2131c7ddb23b8b43a18377

Replying to https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/6474#issuecomment-1405954156

No good for me. I tried both dropping the dll into vkd3d-proton in Proton Experimental and tried directly replacing the dll in the game files and neither worked.

Just to be clear. 1: Had Steam check the Integrity of the files 2. I copied D3D12Core.dll from Forspoken D3D12 Folder within the Forspoken Game Folder to My Windows C:\Windows\System32 folder

That resolved it for me and I just got done playing 40 Minutes in the Demo. Hope that Clarifies and helps you guyz

Replying to https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/6474#issuecomment-1405958524

Did you try placing it in the wine prefix of the game (steamapps->compatdata) in the system32 and syswow64 folders? Also try running winecfg -> Library, and add d3d12core.

This dll doesn't do anything other than allow the game to check for its existence and version number. It's supposed to load its own shipped d3d12core after checking that it's newer than the windows one. So don't replace that shipped one with this.

Did you try placing it in the wine prefix of the game (steamapps->compatdata) in the system32 and syswow64 folders? Also try running winecfg -> Library, and add d3d12core.

This dll doesn't do anything other than allow the game to check for its existence and version number. It's supposed to load it's own shipped d3d12core after checking that it's newer than the windows one. So don't replace that shipped one with this.

Dropping the dlls into the wine prefix got me past the dx12 error message. However I see an endless loading screen, so one problem down, onto the next.

Replying to https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/6474#issuecomment-1405975113

Did you restore the d3d12core file that was in the game directory? Verifying the integrity of the files should restore it.

Dropping the dlls into the wine prefix got me past the dx12 error message. However I see an endless loading screen, so one problem down, onto the next.

Using -noDirectStorage as a command line argument fixes the infinite load for me, but then I hit the ntdll error. This is possibly a denuvo error, so perhaps that's not a problem for the demo?

Did you restore the d3d12core file that was in the game directory? Verifying the integrity of the files should restore it.

Yes, I did.

Dropping the dlls into the wine prefix got me past the dx12 error message. However I see an endless loading screen, so one problem down, onto the next.

Using -noDirectStorage as a command line argument fixes the infinite load for me, but then I hit the ntdll error. This is possibly a denuvo error, so perhaps that's not a problem for the demo?

Ah, yeah. That got me past the loading spinner. Yeah, a failure to authenticate makes me think maybe a denuvo error. It would be odd for them to authenticate dlls without it being tied to drm, but who knows?

EDIT: After a little investigating, ntdll.dll is one of the dlls denuvo checks, so this is almost certainly a denuvo error.

What does the ntdll error say? Could you also attach the proton log?

What does the ntdll error say? Could you also attach the proton log?

proton version: experimental (not bleeding-edge)
launch options: PROTON_LOG=1 SteamDeck=0 %command% -noDirectStorage

ntdll.dll: signature failed to authenticate. Please try to reinstall

steam-1680880.log

Thanks, the log doesn't say much other than it's using BCryptCreateHash to get a hash. I'm not sure if this is a denuvo problem, but the demo also has this issue. I guess it's possible the demo also has denuvo. It's literally hashing the ntdll file to check if it's been tampered with or not. I don't think there's a way to properly fix this with Wine/Proton, other than a hack patch of course. It actually checks more than ntdll too.

One thing to note is that if you don't press "OK" when the error dialog appears the game will continue loading the intro and the main menu, but you can't interact with it because of the dialog.

Regardless, there is a way to get it to run.

Workaround

From a working Windows 10 installation, has to be 1909 or higher I'm assuming, you have to copy all these dlls from system32 and syswow64 into the respective folders of the Wine prefix of the game, /steamapps/compatdata/2228080/

• ntdll
• kernel32
• kernelbase
• advapi32
• sechost
• msvcrt
• ucrtbase
• user32
• gdi32
• win32u
• setupapi
• rpcrt4
• winmm
• combase
• imm32
• bcrypt
• crypt32
• dxgi
• oleaut32
• ws2_32
• wintrust

Talk about excessive.

I find it funny that it's hashing bcrypt through bcrypt lol, like "Trust me bro, this is a totally legit hash".

Note: You have to copy dxgi after starting the game otherwise it will be overwritten by Proton. I tried making it immutable and read-only but the game wouldn't launch this way.

For me, it gets to the main menu then crashes when loading a new game. Or even staying in the menu for long enough causes it to crash, along with steam itself. I thought it might be because of dxgi, but replacing it with the steam one after it does the hash check results in the same thing.

Edit: There might be a memory leak either in the game or in Wine/Proton as it increasingly uses more and more memory just sitting in the menu. I only have 16 GB of RAM and have multiple applications running, using about 7.5 GB. Just getting to the main menu uses about 7 GB and then it slowly increases.

I guess the crash is due to the lack of memory.

##System Information

Steam Deck 512

Game Installed on SSD

Proton 7.0.6 Next preselected

Symptoms

Select menu has missing backgrounds, missing map and selections making it impossible to use the map or skill tree. This may be because all of those are 3d an rendered in real time. You see a big black nothing in the middle of the Skill Tree or Map tabs and going back to game from the Select menu takes ages .

##Reproduction

Open game, go on the open world. Press Select. Attempt to use the Map, Magic or Gear Screens

Replying to https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/6474#issuecomment-1408172030

How long did you wait for those menus to load? On desktop, they can take a good 15 seconds to load.

It takes about 30 sec proton ge but on 7.0.6 they just wouldnt load for me and going back to the game gave me black screens

As of patch 1.02 of the game, SteamDeck=1 is no longer required for the game to run on Linux. I ran the game with SteamDeck=0 explicitly set and where previously I was getting a Denuvo error, I'm now able to get into the game just fine.

As of patch 1.02 of the game, SteamDeck=1 is no longer required for the game to run on Linux. I ran the game with SteamDeck=0 explicitly set and where previously I was getting a Denuvo error, I'm now able to get into the game just fine.

How are the textures? It appears they were forced on very low no matter what.

I didn't have too much time to look around before work. I'll do a bit more looking around this afternoon. I was basically just able to confirm that the game runs and graphical settings actually affect things now.

EDIT: Just took another look around, and yeah. Textures are looking way better.

EDIT2: I've also verified that the -noDirectStorage tag is no longer required. I don't know if Valve added that as a default when launching the game or if the game just knows what to expect on Proton, but that's nice.

EDIT3: Mind you, the FPS is still hovering in the low 20's / upper teens no matter what I do. I'm on a mobile 3080ti with a 1440p screen. At least it looks nicer with the performance not being any worse.

Things seem to be working a lot better now. I am noticing some ground textures in the distance look like they are from the PlayStation 1 area. Looks like it is some kind of LOD issue in certain scenes in the benchmark. I notice the textures look good then as the camera pulls back from them they turn to trash. I notice that Model Memory in Graphics settings is grayed out and set to Low. I don't know what this setting is meant to do but my test system certainly does not have low memory of any kind. I wonder if it is still assuming all linux systems are the steam deck in certain aspects.

SteamOS 3
5800X
32GB DDR4 RAM
NVMe SSD PCI-E 3.0
6900XT

Game is GPU bound on my system with CPU cores hovering in the mid to high 20s. Occasional peeks to mid 40s.

I get 51FPS average on the benchmark at 4k with this setup. All graphics settings maxed without any DRS.

Setting FSR to Quality bumped my average FPS up to 88.

I didn't have any issue setting the model memory. Try explicitly setting SteamDeck=0 in the launch options. I think it might still be on by default for this game.

Can confirm, setting SteamDeck=0 enables Model Memory as well as allowing Screen Mode to be set to Windowed and Fullscreen. This has resolved the LOD texture issue. Also seeing more things on the ground at distance. Performance is a lot lower as well now. Getting average 44 FPS at 4k without any DRS. Need to set FSR to Balanced now in order to stay above 60fps in the benchmark. This game seems to be limited to only 8 threads as well.

Also discovered a very annoying issue. If a Bluetooth controller disconnects at any point the game will lock up and you need to close it via the Steam Menu and re-launch the game.

Lucky you. I wish I wasn't stuck in the mid-20's. I'll be playing around with settings more to see if I can get at least into the 30s/40s. I feel like a 3080ti, even a mobile 3080ti, should be able to do better than low 20's.

Can confirm the 1.02 version improves things, but performance is still pretty bad. On my Nvidia GTX 1080ti, PROTON_ENABLE_NVAPI=1 gives an extra 5-10fps, which gets me from around 12-18 in game to 20-25. GPU usage in mangohud still only shows around 30-60% utilization.

I don't generally like enabling NVAPI because I assume there's a reason it's usually disabled, but I'm noticing those on AMD GPUs averaging higher framerates while Nvidia users are stuck in the low-to-mid 20s

I'm attaching logs in case they can help

steam-1680880.log.gz

Hi! 3060 ti here, it is stuck at around 30 fps (with tremendous spikes down to 10 fps) no matter if I set everything in low or high quality mode (it looks pretty bad in high quality mode btw). GPU usage is at 50% with 5 GB of VRAM used.

Hi! 3060 ti here, it is stuck at around 30 fps (with tremendous spikes down to 10 fps) no matter if I set everything in low or high quality mode (it looks pretty bad in high quality mode btw). GPU usage is at 50% with 5 GB of VRAM used.

If it's looking bad even in high-quality mode, go into your launch options and set SteamDeck=0
It's still enabled by default for this game afaik.

Switching from Nvidia's open-source kernel modules to the fully proprietary ones resulted in a 2-3FPS uplift. Not surprising since the open kernel modules are considered to be in an alpha state, but worth noting as performance is currently a challenge on Nvidia cards.

So to clarify, the steamdeck=1 flag now only restricts some settings at this point? If so Valves gotta remove the forced option from the steamplay manifest.

Yeah. Patch 1.02 fixed both the dx12 error and the denuvo error so the game starts up fine in normal mode now. You can turn it off manually, but Valve needs to get on removing the option so that it's no longer on by default.

At the moment the only issue I'm aware of is poor performance on Nvidia cards.

NVIDIA performance is basically unchanged on patch 1.10

It looks like there is maybe a 10FPS bump in some places, but stuttering is unchanged.

For reference, on the Windows side, people are reporting their FPS almost doubling.

I don't know if that's normal, but for me on Radeon RX6900XT, i'm having huge fps drops, from like 90FPS (4k) to 40-50 each 10-15 secs. It kinda looks like Vulkan shaders thing, but they are set to compile before game starts, and also, lag spikes doesn't seem to dissapear after playing for a while.

One interesting observation with patch 1.10. It does NOT like RADV_PERFTEST=gpl. With this enabled it starts and after displaying one or two of the 'working' circles goes to a blackscreen. This is with:
mesa 23.1 (built from git),
kernel 6.2.2,
proton experimental or 7.06
kde wayland 5.27-2
on an up to date Arch install
using either steam or steam-native.

Just played the opening chase scene and ran the benchmark. Not a single frame time spike and FPS is between 60-90 with an average of 78 fps in the benchmark. The previous patch gave me slightly lower FPS (Needed to use FSR Quality with DRS to keep above 60 fps) and I had some moderate frame time spikes. Would not say it was unplayable by any means. Graphics manually maxed (including motion blur), no FSR, and no DRS.

You still need to use SteamDeck=0 in order to enable all graphics settings. I ran with gamemoderun SteamDeck=0 %command%

3440x1440
5950X
6900XT (Overclocked)
32GB RAM
NVMe SSD

Pop!_OS 22.04 LTS x86_64
6.2.0-76060200-generic
Mesa 23.1.0-devel (git-2b00eaa 2023-03-12 jammy-oibaf-ppa)
Proton Experimental Bleeding Edge
GameMode Enabled although I see no difference between on/off in testing

If you are having issues might want to try the latest development version of Mesa, Newer version of Proton, or a newer kernel.

Nvidia issues, well best go with AMD GPUs if you plan on gaming with linux due to the driver being a black box. Nobody knows how the driver works due to closed source and it is difficult to resolve issues because of this. Maybe one day Nvidia will fix whatever problem is happening or someone smart enough can reserve engineer the issue. Nvidia is just an overall bad experience on linux and I would not necessarily blame the game for issues.

Yeah, I suspect that whatever issue Nvidia cards are having with Forspoken is something on the driver side, which leaves us kinda stuck.

Might be related to #2927 that this is crashing ("SGDT instruction cannot be used by applications").

Time for crash log.. Having updated to Mesa 23.1.4 and with Proton 8.0-3 this is what I get currently.

Before the crash there is log entry:
85349.122:0134:0194:info:vkd3d-proton:vkd3d_pipeline_library_disk_thread_main: Flushing disk cache (wakeup counter since last flush = 31). It seems like application has stopped creating new PSOs for the time being.

This is then followed by the crash dump.
steam-1680880.log.gz

There's something generally broken on NVIDIA (1080Ti in my case). The game doesn't utilize nor GPU nor CPU and they sit around 15-19% at 13-20 FPS (720p). The game is running REALLY bad. I hate Windows but I installed it to see how the game will run. It's running fantastic with 200 FPS on standard and with 70-80 FPS on Ultra settings and 1440p. Is there a bug on NVIDIA bugtracker? Are they aware about this problem?

@mozo78 nvidia pascal and older performing badly in pretty much all d3d12 games on linux is known and is unlikely to ever change.

Hmm, I have many D3D12 games which are at least playable and some of them are running great. This one isn't even barely playable :(
I'm waiting 4080Ti though :)

@mozo78 nvidia pascal and older performing badly in pretty much all d3d12 games on linux is known and is unlikely to ever change.

I don't think that's relevant here as this game performs poorly on a 3080ti as well. It's known to perform poorly on all NVIDIA cards on Linux.

The Nvidia driver is a closed Source black box that nobody can even properly debug for let alone fix bugs and it's not like fixing Linux specific bugs is any kind of top priority for NVIDIA. If you plan on seriously gaming on Linux I would highly advise you just stick to an AMD GPU. I have a 6900xt and this game runs perfectly fine at 4K 60fps.

I filed a bug, feel free to report the issue.

Replying to https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/6474#issuecomment-1679746436

Please use my link to confirm the problem on the NVIDIA bug tracker.

I found that turning on vsync and setting vram usage to low (lower than necessary) increased time between crashes from 1-2 minutes to ~20 minutes. It is at least enough to get through the apartment-scene in first chapter upto another save point that you can continue from.

I can confirm that the latest update with FSR3 makes forespoken a
flickering mess here (it needs serious epilepsy warnings - It is that
bad). I am on an up to date Arch install and
have tried Proton 8.0-3 and experimental. Mesa is the newly released
23.2.1 (when using steam-native) though the same problem occurs with
steam-runtime. There is no selection to
disable/enable framegen and the two ray tracing selections are forced on
and cannot be disabled.

On Fri, Sep 29, 2023 at 3:49 AM Adriano Martins @.***>
wrote:

constant screen flickering with the latest update, FSR3 FG needs dxvk
nvidia device id spoof to show up but it crashes as soon as i try to turn
it on, log from the demo bellow:

steam-2228080.log
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/files/12762149/steam-2228080.log

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I can confirm the issue is happening, there should be a bleeding edge patch to address this.

The game is a flickering mess on Steam Deck after the update regardless of settings. Its a health risk even. Even the menus are constantly flickering now.

still massive flickering even with the vkd3d fix in bleeding edge.

https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/assets/45145914/819769d6-79bc-4eaf-9da8-80f4b35760db

https://github.com/HansKristian-Work/vkd3d-proton/issues/1717

constant screen flickering with the latest update, FSR3 FG needs dxvk nvidia device id spoof to show up but it crashes as soon as i try to turn it on, log from the demo bellow:

steam-2228080.log

for me FSR Frame Generation option not appear even with this dxvk.conf:

dxgi.customDeviceId = 24c9
dxgi.customVendorId = 10de

Am I doing something wrong?

System information

    GPU: RX 6700 non XT
    Driver: mesa RADV
    Wine version: Proton Experimental with vkd3d-proton recompiled
    VKD3D-Proton version: 2.10.0/1.3.261

Ah, I see, thanks!

It seems I can't find such option and I searched hard.

It seems I can't find such option and I searched hard.

What are your game launch option? What GPU do you have?

The FS3 Frame Generation implementation of Forspoken on windows seems to me that it doesn't work on pre-2000 series of Nvidia and pre-5000 series of AMD. Maybe if you have one of this "older" gpus you can try some gpu spoof?

On NVIDIA it's not working... Can you screenshot the option for me?
Thanks :)

Here

Thank you, I don't have it for sure.

Actually it appeared somehow and it completely fixes the flickering problem. Thank you very much!!!
Now it's only left NVIDIA to fix the terrible performance.

Is the game now playable on steam deck?

Replying to https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/6474#issuecomment-1751722497

don't crash now after having added RADV_PERFTEST=rt VKD3D_CONFIG=dxr

I think it's time for valve to remove the forced steam deck proton setting, doesn't do much but harm at this point

I just wanted to pop in and say that Forspoken now works fine on my nvidia 1080ti on driver version 550.54.14 with Proton Experimental (and GE-Proton-8.32). Load times can be kind of high but that may have just been first-time shader compilation since it's been so long since I've made an earnest effort to play. After more than a year of owning this game and being unable to play it at even 30fps, I can finally justify not refunding it. :D

My current launch options are

STEAMDECK=0 mangohud gamemoderun %command%

Replying to https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/6474#issuecomment-1975810801

It's the driver, not Proton. Nvidia finally fixed it.

It's the driver, not Proton. Nvidia finally fixed it.

I'm not splitting hairs, I'm just pinging anyone who follows this topic that it works now. Who fixed what or how isn't really the point (nor did anything I say suggest otherwise)

It's the driver, not Proton. Nvidia finally fixed it.

I'm not splitting hairs, I'm just pinging anyone who follows this topic that it works now. Who fixed what or how isn't really the point

Yes it is, Proton/Valve has nothing to do here:
https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/forspoken-really-bad-performance-no-matter-the-settings-or-the-driver-version/263232
The problem is fixed in 550.54.14.

The game flickers like hell unless FSR3 frame generation is enabled. But I don't want to use frame generation, so that's not a solution. Any fixes?